Capitalism vs. Communism vs. Socialism

[To0]

Capitalism: An economic system based on a free market, open competition, profit motive and private ownership of the means of production. Capitalism encourages private investment and business, compared to a government-controlled economy. Investors in these private companies (i.e. shareholders) also own the firms and are known as capitalists. Workers can earn a wage that they have earned and quality for. Individuals can achieve great wealth if so desired.

Communism: Economic and social system in which all (or nearly all) property and resources are collectively owned by a classless society and not by individual citizens.

Socialism: Socialism is an economic concept that advocates public ownership of all resources. The production and distribution of resources with a society are then controlled by members of that society collectively or by the government that represents that society. Goods are produced and distributed based on need rather than on market forces such as profitability, price and consumers' purchasing power. In a socialist economy, workers contribute to society based on their ability and receive according to their needs, rather than being paid wages and using that money to purchase what they want. Private possessions are limited to personal-use items such as clothes, and there is no need or ability for individuals to accumulate wealth, so there is equality among the people.


In a lot of our discussions in this debate zone we are inadvertently talking about one of these. People are upset because they want more and feel treated unfairly. Some of us throw up charts and graphs to show wealth gaps and so forth. So what is the best option? For me the answer is and always has been Capitalism. Here in America we also use some Socialism as well to help those who are lesser than us. It allows me to work hard for myself, not rely on anyone else and if I feel like helping someone out that is my own choice. My taxes go to systems that help people who are lesser, so it's not like it's all for self gain here. But the other two in my opinion are extreme and just simply do not work if the entire economic system is based off of them.

 

[ChemicalX]

Capitalism..! (y)

 

[MikeIn]

None of the forms in extrema is too good.

But a Capitalist + with certain degree of Socialist/communist feature is important else the world cant be a good place to live in.

Also a very important thing is we should not allow money to control all and everything. After all earth/nature is not a belonging/ owned by one/ group and hence everyone should be allowed to have a healthy living.

 

[cvrle77]

This is one extreme topic, with lots of it to be written, but lemme give it a shot.

Capitalism is worst of the worst. Not a single word from mentioned in reality is true, and like any -ism, there's 'ideology' behind it that simply doesn't work in practice. Here's why.

It is simply not true that capitalism leads to the greatest standard of living to all citizens. This is just a phaze, until capitalism weeds out richest, and poorest on the surface.
Today you have huge corporations, where small people can't make anything. Example:
I have a fast food restaurant. Then McDonalds shows up with it's billions, and takes over all the market. I am forced to close down. And everyone having restaurant in that neighborhood.
So, those with more money are always in advantage over people with low money supply. This eventually leads to separation of society, where richer gets rich, and middle class becomes poor class. So, it this case, all I can to is to become a wage slave, and start working for poor wage at McDonalds, or find something else.
Majority of people is degraded into machines of production, and our whole live becomes a survival.
It is inevitable that capitalism grows out of controllable proportions, because, only few get rich , and so rich that they can create their own laws.
For example, they will suggest and lobby for ISO-XXXXX standard for milk, where small farmers can't invest that much to satisfy this standard. Eventually, rich will crush competition in this way, and weed out lots of small people, closing their business down. Those who survived, will face some other ISO standards, and similar games, who's only purpose is to close down small private businesses, and get unfair advantage to rich people to become more rich. So, capitalism have nothing incommon with word 'fair'. In capitalism, not every person gets equal chance to succeed. There is no emphasis on any humanistic values whatsoever.

In capitalism, word morality simply doesn't exist.

For example, phones or computers will be made to last only 2-3 years, and they will BREAK after that. While we have technology, where we CAN build phones that could last for decades, this is not profitable for corporations. The bad that comes out from this, is waste of limited resources, for the sake of getting more rich.

Btw, don't bring free healt care into discussion, since you're already paying taxes for that, and that money spins around, so you are paying for it, it's not free, it's just a word attached to it, to get illusion of how something is free. Not only it's not free, but you are paying for health care of those who are jobless. Note that country doesn't have the money, they get money from taxing you. So, if they pay for something, that means you are actually paying for it.

Tbh, I lived in socialist time in my country, and my folks actually had money. Since democracy stepped in in this country, everything got fucked up.

When you are talking about capitalism, you are talking about modern slavery. We are already seeing that in practice. But problem is, it will get worse. Richer will only become more rich, till everything collapse.

Real economics is the study of how people transform nature to meet their needs.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqwd_u6HkMo[/ame]

And this is what is to be expected:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qoZupOMN8w[/ame]

 

[PixelatedHost]

ill go with Capitalism

 

[cvrle77]

I'll go with humanism. None of these are resource based, but instead are wrecking everything around them, with no responsibility toward anything.

 

[To0]

I have a fast food restaurant. Then McDonalds shows up with it's billions, and takes over all the market. I am forced to close down. And everyone having restaurant in that neighborhood.

So you're saying that if a city doesn't have a McDonalds, but has 5, 10, 15 or 20 restaurants and fast food places and McDonalds comes in that all will have to shut down? That doesn't even make any dang sense man! A McDonalds doesn't reign supreme over ANY real family restaurant that isn't fast food. And won't rarely put anyone out of business. Just because the corporation is the most valuable fast food restaurant, doesn't mean that they wipe out business in the area. That's not how business works. People might eat McDonalds today, Burger King tomorrow and Applebee's on Friday.

This eventually leads to separation of society, where richer gets rich, and middle class becomes poor class. So, it this case, all I can to is to become a wage slave, and start working for poor wage at McDonalds, or find something else.

If you work for a poor wage, it's by choice. People elect to work at McDonalds and other fast food places because they are unwilling to work long hours, have to commute to and from work, job title and description and so forth. Some people just like to do simple things like flip a burger and throw it on a paddy instead of learning a real skill and investing in their earnings. It's that persons fault, not societies nor the systems. Also, here in America most people who work at fast food places that aren't Managers or Maintenance are teenagers or very young adults whom are just starting out.

Majority of people is degraded into machines of production, and our whole live becomes a survival.

Degraded? You mean uplifted right? Producing things is good, it's a system that everyone relies upon. I need someone to produce vehicles so I can buy one so I can get around in life. I need someone to produce food so I can go to the grocery store so I can eat. I need someone to produce clothing so I can go to the store and buy clothes, and so on. Life is about survival. If people elect to do nothing, learn nothing and be nothing, then that's their choice. I elect to learn, move forward, work hard, and have a comfortable life.

It is inevitable that capitalism grows out of controllable proportions, because, only few get rich , and so rich that they can create their own laws.

Some rich people throw money around and try to pad pockets all the time and sometimes they are successful. This is just something that you have to life with. It's not Capitalism's fault, it's Greed and Corruption that are to blame.

In capitalism, not every person gets equal chance to succeed.

Wrong.... Everyone has a chance to succeed! These people who are billionaires and millionaires all started from some where. Not every single one of them inherited family wealth. There are a lot who started from absolutely NOTHING. You can still do this today. Creating a business isn't hard.

For example, phones or computers will be made to last only 2-3 years, and they will BREAK after that. While we have technology, where we CAN build phones that could last for decades, this is not profitable for corporations. The bad that comes out from this, is waste of limited resources, for the sake of getting more rich.

You can purchase these devices and they would cost considerably more. Pricing for our electronics in the world has come drastically down. Computers and phones don't break after 2-3 years unless you throw them out of a 20 story building. It's the way you treat the equipment. You can easily keep a computer for 5 or 10 years if you want as long as you invest in a new motherboard and more than likely a new hard drive. Other than that, your investment is now minimal.

Tbh, I lived in socialist time in my country, and my folks actually had money. Since democracy stepped in in this country, everything got fucked up.

Sounds to me like you are bitter at the system because your family couldn't adapt to the Capitlistic Democratic way. I am sorry that they lost their money, but in the real world, you have to WORK and LEARN for your money. Things aren't handed to you like in a Socialistic environment where everyone gets paid equally. That's a primitive lifestyle. Basic and boring at it's finest!

When you are talking about capitalism, you are talking about modern slavery. We are already seeing that in practice. But problem is, it will get worse. Richer will only become more rich, till everything collapse.

When I talk about Capitalism I talk about freedom and the potential and capability that each and everyone of us that lives in this system has. There are so many opportunities and so many benefits that are received as a result of this system. The people who wine and complain are those who don't understand it, lazy or are unwilling to further their lives and want free handouts. CV you obviously were harmed by our system so you despise it (as you said above when your family suffered from Democracy), but it works well for people who understand the way of life. The way of life is being free... Having the ability to work and make your own way is much better and safer than working or not working and making the same wage as everyone else and having a mediocre crap ass apartment with crap ass income to live a crap ass life.

 

[cvrle77]

So you're saying that if a city doesn't have a McDonalds, but has 5, 10, 15 or 20 restaurants and fast food places and McDonalds comes in that all will have to shut down? That doesn't even make any dang sense man! A McDonalds doesn't reign supreme over ANY real family restaurant that isn't fast food. And won't rarely put anyone out of business. Just because the corporation is the most valuable fast food restaurant, doesn't mean that they wipe out business in the area. That's not how business works. People might eat McDonalds today, Burger King tomorrow and Applebee's on Friday.

I took an example from my own town. Just because you don't notice something, it doesn't mean it's not happening.

If you work for a poor wage, it's by choice. People elect to work at McDonalds and other fast food places because they are unwilling to work long hours, have to commute to and from work, job title and description and so forth. Some people just like to do simple things like flip a burger and throw it on a paddy instead of learning a real skill and investing in their earnings. It's that persons fault, not societies nor the systems. Also, here in America most people who work at fast food places that aren't Managers or Maintenance are teenagers or very young adults whom are just starting out.

If I would to put you with 20$, on the street, you would sing a different song. First of all, not everyone is ready to accept unqualified staff for something that needs qualification. On the other hand, maybe you finished school, where not many places is available, if any. It's not problem with young people, usually, older folks, in like their 50s, sometimes finished schools for works that don't even exist today, or their spot was taken by machine.

Degraded?

Degraded in terms that with their wage they can't afford anything but bare survival. Obviously you are talking from your own position, where you live with mom and dad, which fortunatelly have the roof over their head, and probably a good solid financial background. But all that is not = everyone else in capitalism. On the contrary, for someone to make money, someone else needs to give his money away. If I have 5$ and you made a bread which for ex. costs 5$, my 5$ goes in your hand. So, I am left with no money. It's so simple yet no one understands that. You can't have unlimited money supplies. There's always someone at the end, that gets all your money, and where money stops to go in circle. Money in capitalism doesn't circulate as it should. And if it doesn't benefit majority of people, you cliaming it's a good system, doesn't make it a good system, just because it fits you. There's a broader picture in this world, than you.

Some rich people throw money around and try to pad pockets all the time and sometimes they are successful. This is just something that you have to life with. It's not Capitalism's fault, it's Greed and Corruption that are to blame.

No, it is capitalism. The system is wrong in it's core, but you don't get it still. You will see bigger picture in 5-10 years.
If you can't control something, then eventually it will disbalance itself making huge gaps and holes. Capitalism produces rich people, in human nature IS to be rotten, and corrupt. Virtue is to stay uncorrupted. So again, you are seeing this wrong. Money gives man power, and only those that care for others, which is minority, will stay out of corruption (but eventually fail, bcause they are surrounded by corrupted majority, which will try and succeed to put that person out of business). If it's any other way, than I'm saying, society as a whole, would flourish, but instead, it doesn't.

Creating a business isn't hard.

But someone will do everything, that you fail. That's the problem with so called 'free market'. You can't have a free market, if there's bunch of rich fucks, lobbying to get new standards for this and that, to make it impossible for you to start any business.

Sounds to me like you are bitter at the system because your family couldn't adapt to the Capitlistic Democratic way. I am sorry that they lost their money, but in the real world, you have to WORK and LEARN for your money. Things aren't handed to you like in a Socialistic environment where everyone gets paid equally. That's a primitive lifestyle. Basic and boring at it's finest!

You never lived in socialist country, so don't talk crap, lol. No idea where you got that 'Socialistic environment where everyone gets paid equally', that's like the dumbest thing you said this month. You got paid, actually paid for what you work, and there was no way for your employer to use any kind of law against you to not pay you for your work, of fire you. My dad was superhard worker, so was my mom, and they were PAID for work they did, not like in todays democracy, where people can use laws against you to find exuses to not pay you, or kill your retirement funds.

When I talk about Capitalism I talk about freedom and the potential and capability that each and everyone of us that lives in this system has. There are so many opportunities and so many benefits that are received as a result of this system. The people who wine and complain are those who don't understand it, lazy or are unwilling to further their lives and want free handouts. CV you obviously were harmed by our system so you despise it (as you said above when your family suffered from Democracy), but it works well for people who understand the way of life. The way of life is being free... Having the ability to work and make your own way is much better and safer than working or not working and making the same wage as everyone else and having a mediocre crap ass apartment with crap ass income to live a crap ass life.

You don't have to look in my country to see what capitalism does to society as a whole, it's enough to walk around your own country. Your problem is that it works good for you, and you don't see any further than that.

As I said, humanism, and resource based econiomy is best way to go.
Also, not having money at all would be the best. Taking care of everyone equally.

 

[bxflow]

I'll go with capitalism but if you look at Communist countries such as Cuba they have their PROs and CONs, everyone has equal paying jobs and have a roof under their heads but residents desperately want to get out but for visitors is heaven

 

[Labrat]

In theory, capitalism sounds the best but doesn't work the best long term. In practice, socialism works the best long term yet sounds the worst. When I say that socialism works the best long term, I mean that it sustains itself better without the economic peaks and valleys.

 

[cvrle77]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3u4EFTwprM[/ame]


reality check:

http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/capitalism_a_love_story_2009/

 

[To0]

I took an example from my own town. Just because you don't notice something, it doesn't mean it's not happening.

Perhaps it's not McDonalds that caused the restaurants to go out of business, but rather, the people who decided to completely abandon all of the other restaurants in the area. :cough:

If I would to put you with 20$, on the street, you would sing a different song. First of all, not everyone is ready to accept unqualified staff for something that needs qualification. On the other hand, maybe you finished school, where not many places is available, if any. It's not problem with young people, usually, older folks, in like their 50s, sometimes finished schools for works that don't even exist today, or their spot was taken by machine.

#1 - Didn't finish school, dropped out in the 10th grade.
#2 - I don't need to be given $1, let alone $20. If you put my on the street with zero dollars in my pocket and the clothes on my back, in one month I would have an apartment with food in the fridge. By the end of the 3rd month I would have a beater car and a small savings. By mid year I would have enough money to furnish that apartment. By the end of the year I would have enough money to buy a better car and invest into a business. How? It's called work!
#3 - Machines do take jobs, but they also create them. Machines need to be repaired and in most cases controlled you know.

Degraded in terms that with their wage they can't afford anything but bare survival. Obviously you are talking from your own position, where you live with mom and dad, which fortunatelly have the roof over their head, and probably a good solid financial background. But all that is not = everyone else in capitalism. On the contrary, for someone to make money, someone else needs to give his money away. If I have 5$ and you made a bread which for ex. costs 5$, my 5$ goes in your hand. So, I am left with no money. It's so simple yet no one understands that. You can't have unlimited money supplies. There's always someone at the end, that gets all your money, and where money stops to go in circle. Money in capitalism doesn't circulate as it should. And if it doesn't benefit majority of people, you cliaming it's a good system, doesn't make it a good system, just because it fits you. There's a broader picture in this world, than you.

If you have only $5 you are doing something wrong. You should work 2 jobs then so you can have extra spending money. My parents are well off because my father has worked 70+ hours a week for the past 30 years & my mother worked part time during that entire time with him. He deserves what he has today because he WORKED extremely hard for it. Money in capitalism DOES circulate. It's just not fair for a worker to get as much as the owner who took the risk to build the company. If a company makes $4 million profit and the owner takes $1 million for himself and has 60 employees who he pays $50,000 each, that's a pretty damn fair guy. This is what's called capitalism.

No, it is capitalism. The system is wrong in it's core, but you don't get it still. You will see bigger picture in 5-10 years.
If you can't control something, then eventually it will disbalance itself making huge gaps and holes. Capitalism produces rich people, in human nature IS to be rotten, and corrupt. Virtue is to stay uncorrupted. So again, you are seeing this wrong. Money gives man power, and only those that care for others, which is minority, will stay out of corruption (but eventually fail, bcause they are surrounded by corrupted majority, which will try and succeed to put that person out of business). If it's any other way, than I'm saying, society as a whole, would flourish, but instead, it doesn't.

What happens in 5-10 years? The American economy completely booms because Obama is out of office and the next President decides to create a few extra million jobs by using our own national oil? I mean that's the next step here. It's like this. If for some unknown reason we lose 3-5 trillion of our GDP we can always step that up by increasing our national production and stop relying on foreign things. People like you just keep on forgetting the fact that we share the wealth and if times get truly tough that sharing will decrease and become more nationalized again.

But someone will do everything, that you fail. That's the problem with so called 'free market'. You can't have a free market, if there's bunch of rich fucks, lobbying to get new standards for this and that, to make it impossible for you to start any business.

What's wrong with new standards that everyone has to adhere to? Why or how does a new standard prevent someone from creating a business?

You never lived in socialist country, so don't talk crap, lol. No idea where you got that 'Socialistic environment where everyone gets paid equally', that's like the dumbest thing you said this month. You got paid, actually paid for what you work, and there was no way for your employer to use any kind of law against you to not pay you for your work, of fire you. My dad was superhard worker, so was my mom, and they were PAID for work they did, not like in todays democracy, where people can use laws against you to find exuses to not pay you, or kill your retirement funds.

LOL. Laws to not pay you? I am confused. If someones employer isn't paying them for the time they have worked, then that's illegal and that employer could be imprisoned. If your retirement funds are killed that's sad, it happens, businesses go out of business, it's a risk you have to take sometimes unfortunately.

You don't have to look in my country to see what capitalism does to society as a whole, it's enough to walk around your own country. Your problem is that it works good for you, and you don't see any further than that.

It doesn't just work for me bro, it works for most. I get out very often and do much traveling, as that's part of what I do on a daily to earn my living. I must say that there are more good areas than bad, more middle class than rich and less poor than middle. The poor areas are obviously the major city areas surrounding Cleveland, Akron, Cincinatti, etc. Those areas are majority black and the areas have been destroyed by drugs and violence so much that businesses have ran away from there to the suburbs. Outside of these major cities, you can't find a single damn place that's poor lol. Not one dude. Stop watching so much TV please and stop watching these horse crap documentaries. I will make my own documentary for you tomorrow when I go out and do my job and you can see how people live here, how much stuff that they have in their homes and how much they have in their life. Be ready, tomorrow you will see the truth.

As I said, humanism, and resource based econiomy is best way to go.
Also, not having money at all would be the best. Taking care of everyone equally.

Here we go with equal again. No way man, I would have WW3 over making everyone and everything equal, it's not fair. I'm not going to work 80 hours a week to create a business and work for my employer so that I can live extra, while someone wants to work part time 20, 30 or 40 hours a week because they are lazy and don't have motivation. No way.

LONG LIVE Capitalism!

 

[To0]

Watched the entire video which I rarely do btw. It was interesting and filled with a lot of facts. But I think you are avoiding the part where he clearly states and demonstrated that so far Capitalism hasn't been touched by Socialism or Communism and "that at least in Capitalism people can acquire things cheaply and by the masses".

Did I miss something?

 

[cvrle77]

I've sent you some videos for easy understanding where capitalist society goes, and how it's gonna end. What you don't understand, and I am saying that capitalism, just like any other -ism, sounds good on paper, but doesn't work good in practice at all (just like socialism in some countries). Your country bailed out banks that bankrupt, with 700B$ of taxpayers money. By your own laws, that's illegal. This says that if you are big enough, law means nothing for you. And you can't be more richer, without leaving someone else more poorer, its math. If there's 10$ in economy, and you take 9, only 1 is left for me. Those 9 gives you power to take even that one dollar from me, and eventually, I won't have any money to spend.

See, I love how capitalism works for me, as individual. But for the whole society, it's destroyer. Total, and absolute.