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Nice discussion :) I didn't watch the video, it's too long.


Knowledge is gained by connections and links between neurons within in the brain, so technically everything you think about and know is based on experience. However, we also have imagination and intuition which is based on the knowledge we have gained. We all have free will, but in a world with more people listening to the same music, watching the same movies/TV, playing the same games, speaking the same language and learning the same things in schools, it's as if everyone is being brainwashed into thinking and doing the same things. It still remains free will, as each person willfully does as they please, but the will of a person can be influenced by what they learn and if what they learn is designed to influence their free will then... That is control.

Just my thoughts on the topic :)
 
Ash, by your saying, God controls our every single movement, action and will?
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This is not a religion topic, so, don't bring god in it.

I am not being delivered every thought. I give it thought and then I act.
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We're not talking about cause-effect in terms thought-physical reaction
We're talking about experience-thought. Your thoughts are coming from experience, emotions, desires, basically other thoughts you stored. You can't get thought out of nothing. Else, babies would talk and solve math equations as soon as they are born.

It still remains free will, as each person willfully does as they please, but the will of a person can be influenced by what they learn and if what they learn is designed to influence their free will then
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It is influenced all the time, by the fact that you are gaining outer experience. You can't have thoughts without it. Your intuition is also not controlled by you, you can't turn it on/off whenever you want. It comes upon you, when it's needed.


Let's take for example deaf person. Usually, deaf person isn't competely deaf, but for the sake of argument, lets increase it's defect to the max. Deaf person have no clue how words are made, and it also can't talk, because it never heard a word in it's life. Therefore it's limited on what it can think of, and do, because its senses are limited. Such persons can learn how to read, but they can't connect words with sound. Therefore, they will always suffer from it on a larger scale, than just being deaf. Their thoughts are limited, because input for informations is terminated, and that's ears.
 
Babies do talk (sorta) the moment they are born. They scream and they holler incoherently, but they are making noise. The baby being born has a brain that isn't fully developed - yet they are thinking to themselves "why the hell is it so cold out here and why do I have to breath in this god awful air, I want to go back in there". Those are the first initial thoughts that we can't prove are thought, but the thought process has already began.

As far as you trying to separate the difference between thoughts and actions, it's contradicting. By saying that you can't have free will in the form of thoughts, you would have to say that you don't have free will in the form of actions. We are led by our thoughts. Our thoughts turn into actions & those same thoughts can also become words and manifest themselves into once again actions.

You see the choice is there ultimately, you have the choice to think about something or to not think about something. That is free will in it's infant stage. Then you have the ability to think about something and to take it to the next level. Have you not created or visioned something in your mind that you have never seen before in your entire life and cannot explain? That is true thought process... Our thoughts are certainly encompassed by what we have learned over time and what we have experienced, smelled, heard, felt, touched as emotions come into play, but then there is so much more. The human brain is a very complex mechanism and one that sends the signals throughout the body to perform it's actions. Actions that we are in control of as well as thoughts (unless suffering from severe forms of ADD/ADHD or other mental illness) Therefore to say free-will doesn't exist is a contradiction!
 
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Well then, the theory of the puppy and it's master puppy falls into pieces if you don't want to include the god theory, however free will is linked with religion by some people.
 
cvrle77 said:
Let's take for example deaf person. Usually, deaf person isn't competely deaf, but for the sake of argument, lets increase it's defect to the max. Deaf person have no clue how words are made, and it also can't talk, because it never heard a word in it's life. Therefore it's limited on what it can think of, and do, because its senses are limited. Such persons can learn how to read, but they can't connect words with sound. Therefore, they will always suffer from it on a larger scale, than just being deaf. Their thoughts are limited, because input for informations is terminated, and that's ears.
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Completely 100% deaf individuals can still form words even though they have never heard them before, so this is not a good example to use. They can do so by placing their hands on their throats and feeling the vibrations, also by putting their hands in front of their mouths to judge how much air flow is coming out when saying words. In fact, most doctors won't even recommend teaching sign language because in most cases the individual will then never speak.
 
Babies do talk (sorta) the moment they are born.
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No, they dont talk. They are screaming mostly because they are scared of unknown, but they cannot control those thoughts.
Also, they can be hungry, another example that they do not influence those thoughts, and that hunger produces though, where they have to scream for food.

Those are the first initial thoughts that we can't prove are thought, but the thought process has already began.
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Ofc thought process began, because they are experiencing things around them, not because they want thoughts, or control them.

You see the choice is there ultimately, you have the choice to think about something or to not think about something.
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Choice is about something that is going to happen in the future. Do you know what you will think next?

The human brain is a very complex mechanism
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That's the key point of this, it's the mechanism, that reacts on causes. Motor engine doesn't just start working on its own, it needs previous cause for that. Brain can't work on it's own, it must be 'fueled' with experience that comes from our senses.

Completely 100% deaf individuals can still form words even though they have never heard them before, so this is not a good example to use.
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It's called lip reading. They cannot form them, if they dont see someone talking. And we're back on experience.
 
Raptile said:
Well then, the theory of the puppy and it's master puppy falls into pieces if you don't want to include the god theory, however free will is linked with religion by some people.
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I said puppet not puppy :P
In my post, by master-puppet I meant the sub-consciousness and not God.
 
I understand what you're saying. However the combustion is what makes the engine actually run and gives it the power to propel. Same thing with our brain. I agree that our knowledge gained, our surroundings, experiences and so on give us fuel but then it is ultimately up to the individual on the amount of propulsion. Each engine is different, some made with more power and durability than others. Same with the brain, difference is, were not a slab of steel, were living breathing flesh that creates these engines and everything else that we are surrounded by. Our actions that are lead by thoughts that we control and ultimately have the final say in are what makes us capable of free will.

Definition of free will: The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

I act and I think at my own discretion when I so choose to do so. I can also tell you what my next thought will be if I set up a certain thought process.

Example: Thinking about the Indians and what position they are in. Next thought that I already knew I would think before I thought it is: "Will they ever win a fucking World Series while I am still alive?" :rofl:.
 
But it simply doesnt go in the order you think it goes. Experience doesn't direcly stmulate conscious, but ALL experiences are processed by subconscious, and only subcosncious have all info inside your brain, and can actually make though from that experience, and push it back to self-you, that we call counscious.

experince--> subconscious--> conscious

Just like you didn't picked up what you will experience in your life, you don't have any control of what will happen in your subc., and know what will be your next thought. One murderer didn't ultimatelly chose to be one, but was caused, by bad genes, bad life, etc, and everything in his life lead him to the fact that he killed someone. This is why we are predictible. I can pinch you with the needle, and know EXACTLY how you will react, because you dont decide if you will feel pain or not.
 
Alex Jones is indeed a con-artist. So much in fact that I think it would make a noteworthy debate thread Blk. Perhaps you should make one tailored to that egotistical maniac.
 
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